I just do not get it - in the name of: I am not good enough, or you must seek more knowledge - no one is willing to discuss these issues frankly and openly with each other.
So far the only person I have any respect for in this whole spectacle is myself, my wife, hafeez101, al-mizzi -
So far I can not for the life of me get a soofie to come and share his views and openly engage in disucssion because they think the salafis are not worth it and they will be made takfeer of.
So what!
If anyone really, I mean REALLY REALLY from the bottom of their heart cared about the way to Ahlus Sunnah they would realize we live in a time where salafis and soofies are in contact with each other and learn to live with the fact that both sides believe the other side does kufr - and get OVER it
I know Al Mizzi believes I believe kufr is ok, I know Al Harrani believes it - but that should not stop me from talking to them? There are thousands of other people who would benefit from such a discussion.
Soofies are more worthless then Salafis, even if their way is correct, they do not have any balls - its the same as the other salafi groups - talk big around each other, pass fatwa around - but when it comes to the other side - ‘We have to REFER to the Kibbar Al Ulemaa’ - Same old, Same old -
I would like to show my tremendous respect and appreciation to Abul Layth for always saying what he believes and backing down when proven wrong, and prowling forward until he is disproved -And Altohough he to has become like those others who refuse to talk to Salafis he did so only after taking it up with Al harrani, god bless Al Harrani, but I don’t think anyone who he disagrees with can have a frank discussion with him.
What however I can’t stand is the fact that Abul Layth ans his friends take offense to being made takfeer of - get OVER it - the Salafis are only applying what they have learned - thats all - so they will make takfeer of you, but lets get beyond that - lets just remember its their ijtihad and they are entitled to it, just as many soofies are entitled to their beliefs that Ibn Taymiyah was a kaafir - it’s ALL good, since we are all seeking the truth -
I don’t even mind the name calling, or the labelling of kufr - but if no one is willing to talk to each other frankly since everyone is a hretic - it pisses me off.
And no, I refuse to go sit at the feets of scholars for 20 years before I can come back and call all of my friends and family to what I think is correct.
Soofies, Salafis, Idiots - all the same.
October 29th, 2006 at 6:23 pm
BismillahiRahamanirRaheem
as-salamu’alaikum,
I am a sufi, what are these issues that you want to discuss?
October 29th, 2006 at 7:07 pm
Hey sas that’s exactly what I said as my tag-line statement under my handle on IN; yet it gets edited and I get banned? What happened to freedom to discuss all opinions (salafis and sufis). So what if I hold a third opinion and said “f***sufis-f***salafis” and then get banned??? Man that’s wrong; I know you didnt ban me and Im still kool with IN, i’ve always been kool. But i think that mod of yours (and btw i dunno who it is) who banned me doesnt have balls.
…
*time lapse*
…
oh yeah, the guys at sunniforums consider ’salafis/wahabis” heretics/kafirs. In case you are deluded, salafis aren’t the biggest takfiris. Barelwis(hardcore sufi-hanafis) happen to be the biggest takfeeris ever. In addition to making takfeer of anyone remotely salafi they make takfeer of fellow hanafis too (i.e. deobandis). To them deobandis are “wahabis” and “wahabis” are “heretics” and “heretics” are ultimately “kaafir”.
October 29th, 2006 at 7:50 pm
Akhee, I do not think we allow cursing on IN - so if you do it to many times your likely to be banned - this is my blog, so if i want to talk about Pamela Anderson’s body I can - but, I don’t think I would be allowed to do it on IN - where I believe the mods would ban me.
We allow freedom of expression for the schools of thoughts - thats all - not the freedo to use profanity, etc.
Barewlis - been hearing about them for a loooong time…
Sas
October 29th, 2006 at 7:59 pm
Ok i get you but it’s funny that mods are very partial in application of their rules. I can atleast name one person out the top of my head who cusses all the time and gets away with it…
October 29th, 2006 at 8:00 pm
Yursil,
I really appreciate the offer -
What I am looking for is someone who is versed in the traditonal way who is willing to have a frank and open discussion with a Salafi -
Two things would help.
1. You should be well versed enough to be able to respect the opinions and the usools they come from, and be able to explain your side in similar fashion - the reason being - they consider you a deviant obviosuly
2. It really helps if you are familar with the arguments they have against you, so you could clear away the misconceptions and try to show the basis for the opinions and the scholars who held them -
Its a tough call, and I can not guarantee that you won’t be disrespected but Al Mizza is being veyr respectful and i have taken it upon myself to be the representatives from the traditonalist school even thouhg me myself, I am only a few weeks into even knowing it existed - I have been a Salafi for seven years:
http://talk.islamicnetwork.com/showthread.php?t=8530
You can see the thread there - and it starts to actually start when I come in towards the end -
I would advise you to not speak to anyone else, becuase other members have no idea what they are talking about and come in with their 2 cents sometimes - and others just HAVE to call you to their way.
It would benefit myself a lot, because I want to learn myself and my family and many of my friends not to mention many members of IN-
I think nutqah here also would love to see this - because
My personal beleief right now is that these are valid chools of thoughts, and I am trying to show it to them - that it is.
Sas
October 30th, 2006 at 12:49 am
BismillahiRahmanirRaheem
as-salamu’alaikum,
Ah an internet forum… I suppose I can do my best.. any questions you have you can email me as well.. my email is my first name @gmail.com (i don’t write it out so I don’t get spam!)
October 30th, 2006 at 1:19 am
BismillahirRahmanirRaheem
as-salamu’alaikum,
I suppose it takes a bit of time to get an account there.. stil waiting on my activation email. Ah..
The discussion there seems to be on Salafi terms and using a Salafi mentality. One has to understand that traditionalists generally think very diferently.
This may be why it is difficult to find anyone to discuss with. This preoccupation with who is right and wrong is nothing further from what Sufi’s / traditionalists preoccupy themselves with… we are busy practicing the Quran and Sunnah as we understand it from our teachers to have lengthy debates about it with those who are zealous in their disagreement with our scholars.
We are not scholars and these issues have existed for decades now and have and are being dealt with the major scholars from all sides. Now its just a matter of how you want to live you life, and how you want to raise your family.
Ask Allah to guide you and me onto Haqq, that is the best approach for now in these troubled times.
In the end of times the Prophet (Sallalahu’alaiheewassalaam) said Allah will take away knowledge by taking away the scholars of Islam.
In the Prophet’s (Sallalahu’alaihewassalam) there was little to be scholarly about. There were no hadith books to memorize, or daleels or this orthat. What were they scholars of? Simply, Ihsan and Imaan.
That is where we sufi’s spend most of our time, with scholars of the subjects of clarity and real benefit to us. Wassalam
October 30th, 2006 at 1:22 am
yo sas check this out: http://lamppostproductions.org/SunnaBida.pdf
i liked what he said and I beleive i was able to reconcile what he said, for most part, with my understanding of bida`ah, because i beleive it really is a difference based on semantics. In reality they are all saying the same thing. Like even ibn tayimiah categorized bida`ah into two categories in his book iqtida sirat al mustaqim.
October 30th, 2006 at 2:21 am
hey sas can I be the mediator for debate section? To date the most successful and longest running debate on IN was initiated by me…so can I be the mediator? *evil laugh*
October 30th, 2006 at 2:35 am
actually forget it i dont wanna be a mediator…debates are often too confusing.
October 30th, 2006 at 8:31 am
Do you expect a Muslim, who is trying to better himself, to take himself being called mushrik lightly? Do you expect a Muslim, who is trying to find the best path, to take lightly, that his wife is committing zina because he is a mushrik to some?
We don’t really care if we are called anything, but we are still human and making takfir of someone is not something that can easily be ignored. I agree, it should be ignored because these people don’t change.
October 30th, 2006 at 8:35 am
No, but I expect a muslim who cares about his brothers and sisters to patiently explain and call people and clarify misconceptions if need be.
And Both Salafis and Soofis for the most part refuse to do it.
Its understandable if one or two people or even the majority are like that, but if the leaders of each of these movements are not willing to impart their knowledge to others - then no one beneifts but the person himself, and thats just being greedy -
Nuh, Alayhis-Salam calld people, left, right from the front, back, publically, privately - anything but he never stopped calling people - thats one Salaf that no one seems ot be able to follow.
HE, Cared about the people he called to and we can not even extend that to our Brothers / Sisters - thats just lame
Sas
October 30th, 2006 at 9:09 am
I expect the same and I think those who are truly seeking truth are finding people who are willing to take their time to explain, even if it takes 1, 2, 10 threads?
I just don’t think that every salafi and ash’ari/maturidi is willing to waste their time with each other, knowing the other party are going to just debate to debate.
On the forum that I visit and mostly read on, you made many threads asking for clarification and it seems many people took their time to answer you. Just don’t expect them to sit around and talk to the likes of harrani, again.
October 30th, 2006 at 9:25 am
Hey, I will gladly deal with Al Harrani, and try my best to keep him off of the backs of any soofies that come along -
There are TONS of other people asking me left and right about this stuff and they are interested - but I think its clear nobody wants to have to talk to Al Harrani, And I do not expect ANYONE to - but there are several other people who would be willing to listen and have some interest -
At the very least they would be exposed to it -
Sas
October 30th, 2006 at 9:29 am
okay.
I do know that some of these salafis, contradict themselves when it comes to their beliefs. It is actually kind of funny.
October 30th, 2006 at 9:43 am
as-salamu’alaikum,
sasjamal I think the main issue is also that this is not purely a theological debate.
Salafi’s call us Jahmee’s. Then on their own Aqida site they list that the blood of Jahmee’s is lawful.
One needs to look at this from a larger, historical context, and not some friendly discussions on an internet board. What happened in the Ottoman empire, how the ummah was divided, when Muslims were fighting Muslims and allying with Non-Muslims against each other..
It is this larger context one must realize why traditional Muslims cannot easily appraoch Salafi’s. If they were to achieve power, the traditionalists would accept the Salafi’s, but the Salafi’s achieve power they kill us.
Plain and simple.
First who do they consider a Jahmee:
“Anyone who explains anything from them according to his desires, or rejects them, is a Jahmee.”
Then what do they think should be done with Jahmee’s:
http://www.spubs.com/sps/apps_SharhusSunnah.cfm?PointID=99
“His blood is lawful.”
October 30th, 2006 at 9:52 am
Weird how an article on spubs, would say, “They weakened Islam, caused Jihaad to be left….”
These are the ones calling people jahmiyyah.
October 30th, 2006 at 1:47 pm
Ive been observing these debates on the forums for some time now. As a former salafi (and Da’i among them), I know how they think. Over the past few years, alot more has been presented to the English speaking Muslim world that shows that indeed, there is a whole other side to what salafis accept as irrefutable fact.
Debates are a waste of time because everyone at the end will think that their own man won it. I think it is much more appropriate for people to just discuss-meaning share their view and clarify where there coming from. Honestly though, that will have to come from the Sufis and not the salafis. We already know what the salafis have to say for the most part.
I might post there a bit and see if i cant add a little to the discussions. None of us are scholars, but we can at least share our views among our brothers. Asharis and Shariah abding orthodox sufis are not the bogeymen!
October 30th, 2006 at 4:12 pm
You will be surprised as to how many on IN are immature, ignorant to the full and so on.
Imagine, what these discussions are doing to some of them? I’ve spoken to a few people and all they say is, I feel confused about my religion now. They never even knew these terms.
October 30th, 2006 at 7:37 pm
I think its better co be confused and not certain and thus end up in a place of tafwid almost without even realizing it - then to start declaring other sects outside of Ahlus Sunnah with certainty -
Sas
October 30th, 2006 at 10:49 pm
can’t you set the rules of the debate so all of the labeling and sarcastic remarks are forbidden. keep it civil and then maybe people won’t be so frightened away.
October 30th, 2006 at 11:00 pm
So far the best solution for me has been to act on both sides and debate people myself - since others can not help but push their own agendsa down.
Yursil thank you very much for coming, I definitely appreciated seeing how you handled yourself, etc.
I also wish you would stay as would others so people could see and benefit from your presence, its better to mix with the people and bear their harms patiently - many of our members are just readers - just because some want to change your views does not mean everyone is like thsat -
Sas
October 31st, 2006 at 4:29 am
as-salamu’alaikum,
I will keep myself available as a resource, but I don’t like debates so much if that is ok with you.
November 1st, 2006 at 3:16 am
Yursil, of course that is fine =)
Sas
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